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Street Watch - Barry Hope (8th Nov 2008  20:23:48) I was chatting to PCSO Pete Tedder a couple of nights ago and he was telling me about a scheme which seems to have worked well in Four Marks and other areas. It is known as Street Watch and consists of a number of volunteers who are keen to make a difference in their community agreeing to keep their eyes and ears open when walking about the village with their dog or just with a friend. Seemingly this has worked well and has resulted in some cases in a reduction in some petty crime, including antisocial behaviour, and at the same time has created a bridge between the local kids and the police where before the kids found it difficult to talk to anyone. These volunteers are able to call PCSO Tedder if they need advice and to pass any information over to him which obviously helps him to do his job more effectively. Chief Inspector Philip Kedge has apparently agreed to attend a meeting in the village at some point in the future to talk about how this scheme operates and how it can make a difference providing there is sufficient interest among the local public. I would be happy to assist, health permitting, and it would be good to know that others were also interested enough to get this type of thing going in Liphook. PCSO Tedder said he would be happy to answer any questions and to explain in more detail. If you are interested give him a call on 0845 045 45 45 or email him on peter.tedder@hampshire.pnn.police.uk Best wishes Barry

Re: Street Watch - Reply from Police District Commander - Philip Kedge (10th Nov 2008  11:58:52) Dear Residents of Liphook, As the District Commander for East Hampshire, I would be delighted to be invited to a meeting to discuss Street Watch. You can find information about the scheme at www.street-watch.org.uk Your local police and partnership group has worked tirelessly to drive down crime in East Hampshire over the last two years with exceptional results. Your community is a very safe place to live. However, community cohesion can often be undermined through a disproportionate fear of crime and a tendency for many communities to rely fully on the police and public services to resolve local community issues. I passionately believe that communities can and should assist in keeping their own neighbourhoods safe in order to build that stronger sense of community cohesion. Street Watch is all about local residents providing reassurance and taking back ownership of their own communities. To make this point, I like to ask residents the following question. If you were out walking your dog, and you saw someone engaging in anti-social behaviour, what would you do? The unfortunate reality is that most people who could do something don't. In not taking some form of positive action or by not challenging the behaviour, individuals and communities become disempowered and those who wish to undermine our communities become increasingly empowered. Street Watch aims to bridge this gap by giving residents the confidence to take control, set standards and to take positive action in looking after their own communities with respect to low level issues that do not require the attendance by Police. The Four Marks Street Watch has delivered results beyond expectation and has empowered people who previously felt like victims. As a result, the engagement with local police is high and many problems have been eradicated. The public's perceptions of their own communities has also been enhanced and the fear of crime greatly reduced. I understand the reservations that may exist around the Street Watch Scheme, but these reservations are often driven through a disproportionate fear and a community that is reluctant to do their bit. I hope that a sufficient number of residents can be found to start a scheme and I would be personally delighted to be involved. About 6-8 people could get a scheme started in your area within 2-3 weeks. The personal commitment is no more than one to two hours per week. Kind regards Philip Kedge Chief Inspector East Hampshire District Commander

Re: Street Watch - Barry Hope (10th Nov 2008  16:18:43) My thanks to you Chief Inspector Kedge for adding your support and comments to the posting. It is encouraging and very positive to know that you take an interest in what happens in our community and are happy to support an initiative that makes a difference. As you say, it is imperative that we work together as it our community and we should not just expect the police to take full responsibility for it, but rather to assist and support members of the community to ensure a safe environment exists for all. One last point, I would like to say that I, and many others living in the area are very grateful and appreciative for the hard work and diligence that PCSO Tedder applies to his post, he is a credit to your organisation, is very approachable and is obviously in touch with the locals which helps him to do his job successfully on our behalf. Regards Barry

Re: Street Watch - karen feeney (10th Nov 2008  18:34:20) Barry, I will start the ball rolling and say I would be interested in coming to a meeting and getting involved. As the mother of two small children and an active member of the community, I am keen to do all I can to help make our village safer and more pleasant for us to enjoy, and if it means I can drive through the village, without rolling my eyes in annoyance, when I see some little 'oik' has upset the newly planted Liphook in Bloom beds, then it will be worth the effort just for that. Count me in Barry! Karen Feeney

Re: Street Watch - claire (18th Nov 2008  10:34:49) I would not want to be actually patrolling myself!! I would however willingly pay a monthly fee to a private security company to supply SIA licensed officers to do it. I know this idea also has had successes in other parts of the country.

Re: Street Watch - Barry Hope (7th Dec 2008  11:07:40) Hi all, Just wanted to update you all on the progress of this initiative to date. There was a public meeting held at the Canada Room in the Millennium Centre last Thursday 4th Dec. I did not know this meeting was taking place as I was away for 3 weeks prior to it being organised and happening. I attended the meeting at which there were about 20 people in attendance. The meeting was presented by Chief Inspector Philip Kedge (East Hampshire District Commander) who gave a talk on the existing scheme running in Four Marks and how successful that pilot is and how it could be just as successful in Liphook. The outcome was that 10 people, including myself, signed up to the scheme and are now waiting to liaise with PCSO Pete Tedder and PC Al Read who are both keen to give us their full support and assist by accompanying volunteers in walking the streets initially. PCSO Tedder also has another 20 or so names from around the village that didn’t attend the meeting who are also ready to take part. If you gave your name here on this post earlier as I know some did, but either did not know the meeting was happening or could not attend, may I suggest that you now contact PCSO Tedder on 0845 045 45 45 or email him on peter.tedder@hampshire.pnn.police.uk. He can then take you through the process of signing up to the scheme and get you ready to join us shortly. Please do take the time to sign up and between us, we can make a difference. Now that I am making a return as a parish councillor I will attempt to gain the support and backing of the other councillors. Best wishes to all Barry

Re: Street Watch - Phil McNamara (8th Dec 2008  17:08:36) I feel a bit guilty for asking thiese questions, as doubtless it will be seen as pouring cold water (which is not my intention). But here goes: How long will Street Watch be in force for? Have the respondants signed up for lifetime involvement, and what is the anticipated life-span of the scheme? Kind regards, PMN

Re: Street Watch - Eneida (9th Dec 2008  00:04:10) Hi Barry, Apologies if you've already explained this, but is this Street Watch scheme in place of the old Neighbourhood Watch or is it something additional? If not, do we have a Neighbourhood Watch on the Headley Road do you know? I've asked this before but nobody bothered to answer.... Eneida

Re: Street Watch - Barry Hope (9th Dec 2008  16:30:07) Hi Phil and Eneida Streetwatch will continue for as long as we, the public, support it. It is our scheme in which we are assisted by the likes of PCSO Tedder and PC Al Read who are both committed to its success. The respondents sign up for as long they wish to, it is their choice. Life span is undeterminable at the moment but I would suggest it will last as long as we want it to and as long it is proving successful. No point in keeping anything going if it isn’t working. Eneida, the Streetwatch initiative is not replacing the neighbourhood watch scheme but will hopefully run alongside it as another way to contribute to making our community safer, more secure and trouble free. As for your last question regarding Headley Road, I’m not sure but I will try to find out for you and report back. Maybe PCSO Tedder can answer this if you email him direct on peter.tedder@hampshire.pnn.police.uk Hope this helps. Regards Barry

Re: Street Watch - Philip Kedge (10th Dec 2008  13:32:26) Dear Barry, Thank you for your responses which are absolutely spot on. I was privileged to have been invited to give a presentation last week on Street Watch and for the enthusiasm of those who attended the meeting and the ten people who have signed up to start the scheme. Pc Al Read, PCSO Pete Tedder and I are now working hard to get the first patrols up and running within a couple of weeks. Everything is coming together very well. I will personally lead and Chair the group for 3 months and am looking forward to patrolling your community as a Street Watch member. The website www.street-watch.org.uk has now been set up with the Liphook scheme added. I hope that when the scheme starts, others will quickly see the benefits and join. I am confident that this scheme will transform your local community and resolve many of the problems and issues being expressed. My personal thanks also to PCSO Pete Tedder who has worked hard in serving your community to the highest standard and in making this happen. Kind regards Phil Kedge Ch. Insp. East Hampshire District Commander

Re: Street Watch - Phil McNamara (14th Dec 2008  20:40:18) Dear Barry / Ch. Insp. Kedge Many thanks for your prompt replies, and the additional information. I sincerely hope that the scheme has a long life-span, as it sounds worthwhile. If there is anything I can do personally to assist with making it work, please do let me know. Kind regards, PMN

Re: Street Watch - Barry Hope (15th Dec 2008  22:14:05) Hi Phil, Thanks again for your support. You know what I'm going to say in response to your offer don 't you. Contact Pete Tedder and put your order in very soon to beat the Christmas rush to ensure quick delivery of a Hi Vis jacket and join us on the streets. Merry Christmas to you and yours from me and mine if I don't see you before. Barry

Re: Street Watch - Peter (17th Dec 2008  11:06:04) I have good reason to look forward to some progress in dealing with low level yobbery in Liphook. Hardly a week goes by now without some little scumbag causing criminal damage to, or theft from, my or my neighbours' properties as they pass through from the pubs to the estate on Manor Fields. Each time we inform the police. Each time we get sympathy and the incident is 'logged'. And that's it, until it happens again and the cycle repeats itself. One of these days I will catch one of these worthless recidivists in the act, at which point no doubt the police will appear as if by magic to charge me with affray. I am all in favour of a community response but this should not detract from the police's responsibility to protect law-abiding taxpayers from filth such as the yobs plaguing my neighbourhood. I have never yet seen a PCSO on the streets around here. The police locally ought to know who the troublemakers are, in which case they should be in their faces the whole time; stopping, searching, doorstepping at unsocial hours and generally making their lives as unpleasant as they are making ours. Streetwatch is an admirable idea, but it is not a substitute for the tax-funded protection to which we are entitled, and it does not absolve the police from their responsibilities.

Re: Street Watch - Sue W (17th Dec 2008  16:51:32) Peter, I feel that you have touched on a very good point. I am all in favour of communities protecting themselves, and look out for one another, but in today’s world how safe are any of us? How safe will those on street watch be?. A fluorescent jacket is no protection! You see every day, people striving to protect their own property and family, who are set upon and at best badly beaten, worst killed. I am no killjoy, but am concerned that those people willing to make a difference and stand up for their area may just pay a high price for it. Would the community or government compensate their families if it all went badly wrong? I heard that Four Marks celebrated their achievements last week and best of luck to them and those who are joining the scheme, but be very careful! Sue

Re: Street Watch - Michael (17th Dec 2008  20:50:36) Peter, These people who damage or steal your property on there way to the Manor Fields estate. Are you saying that is where they live? or are they doing the same on that estate, On there way to the "POSH" estates they live on using Manor Fiels as a short cut. Michael

Re: Street Watch - Barry Hope (17th Dec 2008  22:21:25) Hi I don't think it's helpul to try and guess where anyone comes from or is going to. They could be going in any direction to or from anywhere in the village. Crime can be caused by people of any area. What matters most is that we all do what we can to prevent it. I would suggest we keep up reporting anything that happens as this just might help to piece a picture together about who is doing what, where and at what time. Just recently PCSO Tedder has been able to put together information that has led him to some people out of Liphook that are coming in to the village and causing minor problems. He was able to do this from information that had been phoned in, so it does work. I don't think doing nothing is an option and yes Sue (Thanks for your concern), we will try to be as careful as we can. I have just taken delivery of my starter kit including a hi visibility jacket and will be joining other volunteers as well as PCSO Tedder and PC Read who will be with us initially. Barry

Re: Street Watch - Steve Read (17th Dec 2008  22:57:48) Tried to keep away from this thread, but just can't. Whilst I applaud individuals wishing to take a stance against what is an obvious problem around here, I feel its a dodgy scheme to become involved in. Firstly like everybody else on here a large chunk of my so called community charge is dished out to the police to provide a service so that we can all sleep easy. Where that money is directed, we have no say. Any problems the Police may have in carrying out their duties, ie lack of funds, lack of man power etc etc are not mine. Instead of attending and chairing yet more meetings and talking about the problems maybe the commander of East Hants could save us that money and put it towards extra men on the beat where we need them. Get his men out of the nice warm cars and get them back on the beat so a local presence is more visible. As for everyone clamouring to join in, to walk around the village with Hi-Viz jackets on, it only needs one self styled vigillante to get involved and before you know it a serious situation could develop, then what happens? Personal experience has taught me never to get involved again, report it yes I will go along with. Anything else no thankyou, leave it to the ones being paid to do the job correctly in the first place. Before the commander starts up about lack of man power, maybe he should question the amount of men on traffic patrol who kindly have managed to stop my son 2 times in last two weeks, searched him and the car for drugs (emptying the car of everything, then leaving it all for him to put back). No shortage there then! I've now told him to empty everything out, carry no passengers and stick his mot & insurance documents up in the window along with his tax disc, no probs, except that will be wrong. Refering back to reporting incidents or info, only last weekend I reported to Whitehill Police Station on the spur of the moment I admit, to pass on details that have a direct impact on what is happening around our village only to find................ Yep its closed, this was about 5pm on Saturday evening!!!!!!!!! What is the point, and no I should not have to ring some hot line on the Isle of Wight or wherever they are to be found out of hours. I've decided to let my son pass on the message, he is bound to see them again before me.

Re: Street Watch - Allan (18th Dec 2008  01:27:29) I instictively like this initiative, BUT, if a streetwatcher was to come into conflict with someone whom he/she perceived to be posing a social problem, explained that they are being a pain in the backside, and the object said F.O. or worse, what then. How do you persuade a (presumably?) youngster to go home if he is high on drugs, or more likely, cheap supermarket alcohol, without laying yourself as an individual open to legal charges if you try to enforce your position. You tell them you will summon police.Worried; Idon't think so. It's a badge of honour Strikes me that if you go looking to find and quell trouble, even in a hi vi jacket,with the intention of stopping it, you are left so open to civil legal action therafter Somebody please tell me I am wrong

Re: Street Watch - Jaybee (18th Dec 2008  08:35:36) I have lived in or around Liphook since 1956 and I cannot recall the problems highlighted here existing prior to the "Sainsbury's Estate" being built

Re: Street Watch - Chris (18th Dec 2008  10:51:09) Many of the problems have been (and are) caused by people who do not live in Liphook and who come from larger towns with a bigger police presence and where alochol curfews are in place. So the upshot is that these people travel to other, low crime areas where they can continue to pursue their sad, anti-social evening pastimes at the expense of that community. I am not an advocator of CCTV for Liphook but perhaps it is getting to the stage where it is needed (small-scale) in certain areas.

Re: Street Watch - Sue W (18th Dec 2008  13:10:59) Chris, CCTV Cameras in certain places in Liphook? So that would mean from the message of your post they will move onto another place without them - god help them if they went to Passfield!!!!

Re: Street Watch - Barry Hope (18th Dec 2008  14:06:55) Hi Steve I really do understand where you are coming from as I have had similar problems in the past. Lately however, I have used the 0845 045 45 45 number on several occasions (mostly late evening) and, without fail, have had instant responses with the operator taking the details down and passing them to the officers on the beat. I have had PCSO Tedder and PC Read turn up within ½ hour on one occasion and on another Pete Tedder called in the following morning. I am not going to say this is typical but have you tried that number (I am not sure what the Whitehill number is). Regards Barry

Re: Street Watch - Barry Hope (18th Dec 2008  14:15:08) Hi Allan Sorry, got to be honest, haven’t got an answer for that one yet but you can be sure that someone will. I expect we will find out more during the initial “training walks” with the experienced beaters (I mean that in the nicest possible way!) and I will certainly want to be informed, if only to ensure my own safety. Regards Barry

Re: Street Watch - Steve Read (18th Dec 2008  15:32:06) Barry, Please do not think I'am trying to provoke an arguement on here but in your post back to me you answered my exact fear. PC Tedder managed to get there once in half an hour, and [once] the following morning. I take it from your post that this response in half an hour was the best, what were the other times? I'am not blaming PC Tedder what so ever, he obviously has other things to do, but my point being if a serious situation arose what then would the response time be. Especially if the volunteers found themself in a situation, or just went home and rung the police. We all know most of the time any investigation into the dirty deed after the event amounts to nothing being done. in fact nowadays catching them red handed amounts to nothing being done. Catch them, on the scene, smashing things to pieces, fighting or cutting the trees down. To do this, or more to the point deter it, you need a presence and local at that by the police, and not local residents who have stepped forward, but who could possibly find themselves in trouble. Hope I'am wrong Barry and best wishes to all who have stepped up to the mark. Regards, Steve Read

Re: Street Watch - Dave McGrath (18th Dec 2008  16:04:04) No one has mentioned the fact that, especially during the evening we have boy racers around the village thinking it is silverstone! its about time the police did something before someone is killed!50 mph in a 20 limit! high viz jackets won't help when they lose control and mount the pavement and flatten you! more proper !!!police presence please ,that's what we pay our community charge for!

Re: Street Watch - Barry Hope (18th Dec 2008  18:01:01) Steve, Good to hear from you and no, I don't consider for one moment you are trying to invoke an argument, it is good to have a debate. The response time for me was ok as they weren't particularly serious events but I understand your concerns over more serious situations. Regards Barry

Re: Street Watch - Sue W (18th Dec 2008  21:51:30) Barry, Your comment that sitting back and doing nothing is not an option - surely the original 'community officer' was exactly for those community spirited people to get off their backsides and help the police and their community for a few hours a week on a voluntary basis. But over the years faced many obstacles and safety issues that it metamorphoses into a much better controlled and if I am not mistaken a proper paid position, with better guidelines and safety procedures.(I seem to remember that all community officers were attached to a 'qualified Policeman') Is this new street watch just a throw back to times past, and now the PCSO need help from other well meaning new recruits to help them? Free - where will this stop.? A better organised Neighbour Hood Watch, will offer protection to those individuals that report offences because no one can tell who it is that has reported them - but all the time those calls are well down the list, the offenders have long gone. Would a call from a 'Street Walker' be considered as important as a Policeman, or a PCSO or would they be left to their own devices and as I said before suffer the consequences?

Re: Street Watch - Allan (19th Dec 2008  02:07:46) I share this apprehension about what can effectively be controlled if police back-up is not available immediately. I cannot see how a civilian, however wellmeaning, can detain or restrict the wishes of another person without consent. The fact is that the "Law" can respond only at a rate dependant upon how many are on duty at a given time. Back in 1990, an aquaintance was stopped on the A27 west of Worthing at midnight. Police road block both sides of the carriageway, breathalysed; negative, goodnight, mind how you go! He is an ex policeman himself, said approx. 20 officers in attendance. The same night ,20th Dec, a pub in Selsey was being attacked by yobs chucking bricks and stones through windows at around midnight, landlord called the police, police were too busy to respond and turned up at 7am the next morning. Now, that is an extreme of what can happen; but how can you be sure that Streetwalkers can rely on official backup if the Bill is deployed elsewhere? In Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, a similar initiative was launched some years ago to combat what was an appalling rate of drug and associated petty, and not so petty crime. The tactic they assumed was that "elders" of the parish took it upon themselves to identify those reponsible for drug distribution, anti-social behaviour and generally being less than an asset to the community, uplift them to an anonimous address and thrash the living daylights out of them. The police in Mansfield apparently claimed that they no knowledge what-so-ever of such goings on and that they would clamp down hard on any persons involved in such vigilante activities as it was, clearly, agin the law. The crime rate in Mansfield reportedly dropped like a stone. Now, I'm not advocating that extreme action should be the chosen method of controlling yoofs who are sophisticated enough to know that the powers of anybody but MI5, 6 and Special Branch are limited to verbal requests to be nice and can be dismissed accordingly. But, what do you do to overcome these limitations and be truly effective?

Re: Street Watch - Philip Kedge (19th Dec 2008  09:00:08) Dear residents of Liphook, I have been following the debate with interest over the last couple of days and would like to offer my own comments with respect to 3 key areas of discussion. 1) 'I pay my taxes and expect the police to keep my community safe.' I hold no support for any person who feels that they can or should absolve themselves from responsibility of safeguarding their own community. I feel that this is the most undermining stance that any community can take. Your community is the environment that you live in and as such everyone should be doing their bit to contribute to the welfare of the environment and sense of community cohesion. Any suggestions that creating a safe environment is entirely the responsibility of professional agencies achieves nothing apart from damaging that community. We need to stop making excuses as to why we shouldn't engage and to concentrate on why we should. That way, people will pull together and communities will become stronger. 2) 'We want more police.' There is a big difference between wanting more police and needing more police. Our communities are very safe where crime levels, particularly in areas of Liphook, would not justify higher levels of public expenditure through police resources. To create a police presence that people may 'want' would mean that as a minimum, I would have to double the number of police across East Hampshire. The debate around police [resources] actually holds little value. The reality is that I am not going to get significantly more police officers for East Hampshire to satisfy the public expectation. With that fact established, communities have two choices. To keep demanding more police and do nothing, or to ask a question of what they can do to support police and their own community? The first option will achieve nothing, the second option will transform your communities for the better. 3) 'I am afraid to challenge anti-social behaviour.' This is natural but often based on a disproportionate fear of crime rather than the reality. Of interest, the Four Marks Street Watch members all held this fear. However, they gave it a go and within weeks realised that the fear was unfounded. If you approach young people in an open and friendly manner, they will respond positively. Your fears are driven by the unknown, but once you get to know people by name, who their parents are, you quickly realise that there is little threat and actually you can engage, befriend, seek mutual understanding and start to change behaviour in others. Over coming fear is about giving it a go. To let fear prevent a community from becoming stronger is in my view very sad. The other side of fear is that it drives unrealistic demands and expectations on police. People see a group of youths, perceive them to be a threat and call the police, only to feel let down when we don't turn up in time because of more pressing priorities. Communities can and should be empowered themselves to challenge low level issues and community concerns. Last night, Liphook commenced its first Street Watch patrol. I am down to patrol your streets this Saturday lunchtime. I am patrolling not as a police officer but as a Street Watch member in my own family time. If I am willing to do this for your community, then I hope that you will feel that you can commit 2 hours a month and do the same thing by joining Street Watch. With my personal support and with the support of officers, Liphook has a significant opportunity to now create a community that you want. If you decide not to take that opportunity, then little will change and you will have to learn to be happy with what you have got. The choice is of course entirely yours. Philip Kedge Chief Inspector East Hampshire District Commander

Re: Street Watch - Sue W (19th Dec 2008  10:43:55) Mr Kedge If - as you say it is the fear that stops people acting to control trouble in their communities, and this is unfounded - why the hell do all police come with anti stab vest, radios, mobiles, spray, batons, protective helmets and you are trying to roll out Tazars and can call upon armed officers if they feel the need??? Strip your own officers of this protection - if it is so un-necessary! Perhaps seeing this sort of protection upon those that are paid to do the job highlights the void to a high viz jacket only. I don't think I, or many people have said they do not agree with the community approach, but a safer scheme could be found. I hope to God that not one of those willing to stand up for the community is hurt in any way, to disprove your stance. I do my bit, but history proved that even those that post and read this site, take things too far and came to my place of work, and demanded to 'confront' me upon a subject. What would he have done if I were there? The good old village bobby knew and engaged with their community (as does PC Tedder), talked to teenagers and knew where they lived - are you now saying these PCSO are not doing this? And yes, most petty crime is local, but serious is usually organised and who can predict when and where that will be - after all, those that are best equipped fail. I have on a number of occasions at work in Liphook and home, contacted the Police about offences and to be honest most times nothing is done - take the post with the lady chasing a policeman to help her - who just drove off. As a matter of interest, I did have an application to be one of the new 'community officers' way back, and would have loved to have been part of it, but due to family changes could not put in the hours. It was also interesting that medical and insurances would have been invalid, as I would have put myself into danger, and would have had to pay an extra premium for such cover. I do not know what system you have for today’s PCSO or 'Street Watch'? I wish the community success with this venture and I do not think it is negative to throw in a bit of caution!

Re: Street Watch - Peter (19th Dec 2008  11:13:36) This is an important message from the Chief Inspector which we should all take notice of, and it concerns me greatly. Some of his points are valid. There is no doubt some unreasonable fear of groups of youths, and I am sure that some people call the police when it is unnecessary. And of course Liphook is a relatively low crime area. But there is criminality here nonetheless, and there is low level thuggery and yobbishness which obviously has the potential to develop into worse without police intervention. I have several times in Liphook seen - and confronted - yobs (technically, petty criminals) to no avail whatsoever. Well meaning citizens of a certain age wearing orange vests will fare no better. Chief Inspector, there are people around here for whom only the firm intervention by a state sanctioned arm of the law will have any effect. And you must know better than any of us that petty yobbery in teenagers will frequently mushroom into serious criminality if not checked. I envy those with the time and energy to develop a 'community' life. But we do not all choose to live that way. I and many others chose Liphook as a pleasant dormitory from which we commute for long days in London. What time and energy remains is for my family. If my neighbours need my help they will of course get it. Other than that I unashamedly do expect the police to do the job for which we pay them. This is not just a matter of resources, it is a question of determination and tactics. The Chief Inspector's post is a clear sign to me that that determination is lacking. I currently have my own personal litmus test running. On Tuesday my wife reported the latest of several instances of petty theft from outside our house (and several surrounding houses). This is a routine occurence in our street. I could I suppose stand outside my house all evening wearing an orange jacket. Alternatively I await to see whether the police will take any action (I would be happy to host a CCTV camera), or even return my wife's call for starters. So far it is nearly lunchtime on Friday and no sign. I'll keep you posted. How about it, Chief Inspector?

Re: Street Watch - Terry P (19th Dec 2008  12:52:36) As one who has never previously made a post here it was with interest that I read Chief Inspector Kedge’s post. I write as one whose Father in Law was a Policeman in Liverpool for 30 years and with a Son in Law in the Hampshire Constabulary. I will say that I am amazed that he can take such an attitude. I would take major issue with his point 1. We are not talking about community issues we are talking about law breaking and it is the raison d’etre of the Police. How many times have we heard before to not get involved but to leave it to the professionals! I would point out that we actually do pay for a Police presence in Liphook as part of our Community charge. We actually pay more for the Police than we do for the District Council. The costs have been going up each year at a rate considerably more than inflation. For the police to turn round and say that we will not get more police in the village until the crime rate increases is actually unacceptable. It seems to me that what we need is more Police on the ground not in cars, particularly when they are alienating youngsters with their behaviour (See post above). The statistics published on the Hampshire web site show how successful are the Police in NE Hampshire, with crime rates increasing from last year and detection rates of 30.93% overall, and some such as vehicle crime as low as 5.08%. Taking note of other posts I wonder how many crimes actually get recorded. As far as the idea of Street Watch is concerned, I would not wish to detract from the idea but is it not a further example of not really solving the problem. The Police have all the powers to deal with crime whether petty or otherwise, the Street Watch has absolutely none. I would also ask what protection they have, are they insured? What is the legal basis, will they get any support if things go wrong? We need more visible policing not spending hours in the office dealing with paperwork, attending meetings and non productive policing. For example how much time is lost with police officers attending court to be told at the last moment that the CPS have decided not to prosecute? Finally I would observe that Senior Police Officers should actually be getting their patch in order with more direct policing and with less paperwork and non productive activites rather than telling us that this is the way it is because they say so! I would suggest that our un-elected Police Authority (taxation without representation comes to mind) get to proper grips with the Hampshire Police Force and give us better value for what we are paying.

Re: Street Watch - Stephen (19th Dec 2008  13:38:15) I very much strikes me in coming to these posts for the first time that the situation is as follows. We've paid our taxes and we get a finite amount of policing for those taxes which delivers a certain level of law enforecement. Therefore if we want more "enforcement" the citizens of Liphook are expected to do it themselves. Sounds all very good. Much the same as our kids get the bog standard level of education so if you want them to pass exams then you provide (or pay for) additional tutoring at home. I think there is a danger that the Streetwatch force turn out to be more effective than the professionals. But we know who will take the credit if that happens. Finally on the question of value for money from the professional force - I would be interested if Inspector Kedge can tell us how many manhours his force devotes to Liphook. I wonder if the value of resource that Liphook gets is more or less than the total community charges paid to the Police. I suspect that Liphook cross-subsidising the metropoli.

Re: Street Watch - Philip Kedge (19th Dec 2008  13:56:46) Thank you again for very interesting replies with honest healthy debate. In response, I have to say that the ethos of Street Watch appears to be lost through some of the recent posts taking the concept into confrontation, possible violent conduct and vigilantism. I do understand that many people polarise their views to more extreme 'what if's' that build barriers from actually doing something positive, however, it achieves nothing but to raise fear . Police have protection because they need it to deal with violent people and have to apply force to arrest. Street Watch has nothing to do with this. There is no suggestion of confronting violent people or indeed any form of physical restraint or action. Street Watch members are not police officers but are people being good citizens. Healthy caution is of course good as in any situation. When talking to people you have to operate within your own confidence and skill levels. Back off at the hint of confrontation and use other tools such as noting down the incident, informing your local officer at the next opportunity or calling 999 if appropriate. The ethos of Street Watch is to ask the question, 'If I was out walking my dog and I saw someone engaging in an activity that undermines my community, what would I do? In Street Watch we say 'Do something, don't do nothing'. Doing something is totally dependent on yourself. It could be to take notes, it could be to challenge, it could be to advise or in an urgent situation to call 999. Whatever is comfortable for you. The worst thing you can do is to do nothing, as this dis-empowers yourself, your community and empowers those who wish to undermine it. Street Watch is about people who are willing to do something. As citizens we all have to act within the law and take accountability for our actions. It is as simple as that. I fully understand that there will be many people who for reasons of fear or politics will not take part in or support the scheme. There will also be people who feel that they may not have the skills and confidence to manage situations. I accept their positions. However, there will be many people who understand that this can work and who want the opportunity to try. These are the people who will take the community forward and who in time, others will owe a dept of gratitude to. One last thing that always puzzles me. As we each get into our cars to drive, we may never consider the dangerous activity that we are about to embark on or that we may not survive the journey. However, the thought of walking our streets drives many people to fear and irrational perceptions. The reality is that driving on our roads is one of the most dangerous activities that we do. However, people rationalise the risk and accept risk. The mention of walking our streets and the rational thought is lost!! I am looking forward to walking your safe streets as a Street Watch member and engaging with the local youth element and providing visible reassurance to local residents. Philip Kedge Chief Inspector East Hampshire District Commander

Re: Street Watch - Philip Kedge (19th Dec 2008  14:14:12) Quote - 'I think there is a danger that the Streetwatch force turn out to be more effective than the professionals. But we know who will take the credit if that happens.' Stephen, you are absolutely correct. A united community which has a strong sense of community cohesion and willing to set standards and challenge unacceptable behaviour will be more effective than any police enforcement officer. That is exactly the point of Street Watch. The credit will be that of the community as recognised by police recently in presenting community awards at a formal ceremony to the Four Marks Street Watch Team. To those who have doubts, my challenge to you is to join me. I will personally walk your streets with you. This is your opportunity yo show me first hand all your concerns, fears and community problems. If you turn down that offer then what happens to the credibility of your arguments? It has been an interesting debate and one which I been through previously with the Four Marks Commmunity. We showed that it can and does work. Victims are no longer victims and people who were fearful are no longer fearful. Youngsters are better behaved and themselves support the scheme. The scheme is intergrated within the community and has significant support from residents. This will be my last post on this thread as it is now about working with those who have signed up for the scheme to help build a stronger community for everyone. Kind Regards Phil Kedge East Hampshire District Commander

Re: Street Watch - Miranda (20th Dec 2008  10:46:46) Hi I noticed you said about people taking control of a situation when you see something happening. But unfortunatly because of the state of society now days people are reluctant to get involved through fear of getting hurt or killed themselves. Admitedly Liphook is a much safer place to live than most of the surrounding areas, but the fear and thought is always at the back of their/our minds. I wish you luck with improving the safety and helping people build their confidence to take charge of a situation. Best of luck (From France)

Re: Street Watch - Mike Jenkins (21st Dec 2008  14:21:21) Sir, Whilst out in Liphook yesterday, (Saturday), I came across two of the Street Watch People who stopped and had a chat. They gave me an information leaflet and told me that an interesting debate was available to read on this forum. I was not actualy aware that this website existed so I guess that was the first bit of good work by them in providing community information. Like many I had reservations, but since meeting with them I have been 'won over'. I think one of the Street Watch people was indeed Chief Inspector Phil Kedge although he introduced himself only as Street Watch. Having read these posts, the first thing I would like to do is to thank Chief Inspector Kedge for coming to Liphook and meeting the community, on a Saturday morning, obviously in his own time. I am sure that this does not present part of his job description and no doubt he could just sit in his office and not even attempt to try and do what he is doing. Whether we have reservations about the scheme or not, I think that there is a danger of being too dismissive. To have someone like Mr Kedge taking a personal interest in our community is as far as I am concerned a very good thing, and if we are dismissive of this, then he could take his ideas and attention to another area and what do we gain? I think the answer is to work with this and to give it a go. I don't think that by saying yes we lose anything. Even if it does not work. However, from what I observed, there were smiles, genuine interest and what looked like a welcomed response from the public in seeing the Street Watch people. I would like to invite Mr Kedge back to Liphook and I think that we should as a community welcome the scheme into our area.

Re: Street Watch - Katy (22nd Dec 2008  15:09:47) Mr Kedge I would have been more impressed if you had patrolled at 12 midnight on a Saturday rather than twelve noon. I can't imagine that much crime or anti social behaviour happens at this time of day on a weekend. I don't really see the benefit of the scheme, if people are willing to report crime as they see it fair enough but what are a few people wandering around in a fluorescent jackets on a Saturday afternoon going to achieve? I am like most people on this site preferring to see police patrolling on foot in the early evening and at pub closing time to stop the petty vandalism and crime which seems to happen at this time. I have dialled 999 twice in 8 years of living in Liphook, once for a particularly nasty fight on Carnival night, and once at 7.30pm when I was out walking and found a man wrestling a teenager to the ground who had apparently been vandalising his car. The police took over 20 minutes to arrive in this case. I have also asked teenagers from Bohunt to pick up their litter which they did apologetically and without any hostilities despite them being in a group of 15 youths. All this was managed without a fluorescent jacket! Regards Katy

Re: Street Watch - Steve Read (22nd Dec 2008  19:05:20) An interesting flowery overview by Mr. Kedge and his opinions of our views and concerns on here. This shows to me exactly where the concerns of the public fly in the face of modern policing. He has deemed through his experience of what we need rather than what most of us on here and the public in general need and demand. I share the other posters view about the time at which Mr.Kedge joined in for the Street Watch walk, it would of been more beneficial on the evening shift rather than doing a PR exercise at mid-day. Although as he has told us this was in his own family time, the cynical side of me wonders, would any photos taken be better in daylight. One final point I would like to address with Mr.Kedge, there is a world of difference between fear of what to do in an incident, and concerns raised on here regarding exactly what we can do. The scenario I found myself in some 20 years ago is as follows, maybe this will enlighten him as to why I've raised doubts about the validity of this scheme and of my reluctance ever to get involved again. Whilst driving home one afternoon I witnessed an attack of four youths (15 & 16 year olds) on an elderly gentleman (82 years of age). It transpired he had complained to them about riding their bikes through the block of flats where he himself lived along with other residents in a warden controlled enviroment. They had surrounded him, knocked him to the ground and were in the process of winding the boot in when I came along. On jumping out of my car and only using moderate force (ie, grabbing the first two by their collars) and pulling them off, which in turn led to the remaining two thinking twice about carrying on the assault. Followed by some choice language and a stand off eventually resolved itself by the youths dispersing obviously followed by the usual threats and mouth etc. I helped the gentleman into his house, asked him if he would be ok. Although shook up and a few small cuts, thanked me and said he would be alright. Through knowing one of the other residents I asked them to keep an eye on him, and went on home. Two hours or so later sat eating my dinner there was a knock at the door. On opening the door my wife found herself confronted by three officers (wondering where this is going!!). Thinking they had come round to collect a statement of the incident they were invited in, only to arrest me for assault. Three hours later after being held in cells I was eventually released on the proviso of accompanying two uniformed officers around to all four houses of the youths and having to apologise to them and their parents for my behaviour. To be fair to three sets of parents, they thanked me and said they would deal with their own 'children' but one was hell bent on pressing charges and only after talking to the police withdrew their complaint. Can you imagine the embarassment of having to do this, the accompanying oficers were embarassed for me, but this gives you an insight into where things have gone wrong. I swore from that day never get involved again, if that according to Mr.Kedge makes me fearful, not caring about my community and sitting back and doing nothing then I make no apologies for that. Finally could someone tell me how this incident could have been avoided, should I have observed from a distance (run to a phone box, pre mobile days) waited for a response time of half an hour etc or tackle the situation head on, which as it turned out was my choice. Would I do it again? Truthfully, yes I would because I dread to think of the consequences for that elderly gentleman, but not without some serious reservations. This was an incident that I came across, not a scenario where I had volunteered to be walking the streets but it gives an insight into the dangers and risks for those good people doing so. Faith in the system and the police, not a lot! Regards, Steve Read

Re: Street Watch - Phil McNamara (22nd Dec 2008  22:28:53) What do we collectively think is the root cause of the majority of Liphook's anti-social behaviour?

Re: Street Watch - SUE W (22nd Dec 2008  23:51:27) Steve, Your story is not uncommon; many people have become involved in 'protecting' others, or themselves only to find that they have become the accused and not the abused. I am really unclear of where we are to stand as people within the community now. Up until Mr Kedge's stance, we were told quite clearly not to approach or put ourselves into situations, but to report to the acting authority who will deal with it???!!! Now, the message is quite clear that if we want a better community, we must patrol the streets, stop and engage with those either looking as though they may cause trouble, or protect others if trouble is happening. Worst of all, if we do not chose to adopt this new initiative and walk the streets; we are somehow fully responsible for the degeneration of our society and have no right to complain to the police! There seems to be some very 'creative accounting' going on in the minds of our police heads, who obviously have lost the will or means to sort it out, and are now engaging people from outside of the force to do it for them. I saw two street jackets in the square on Saturday, and the most visible item seemed to be a clipboard! What i would like to know, is ...if walking to the CO-Op at night, and I was attacked or my bag stolen, or my possessions were removed from my car, what course of action would these community walkers take, tackle the offenders? phone for help? take details?, phone pictures, video, or just pat me on the shoulder and comfort me and log the call the next day?

Re: Street Watch - Barry Hope (23rd Dec 2008  00:29:50) Steve, I agree with you that examples such as the one you quote play a large part in creating a walk-on-by society. The distinct bias towards the offender has to be tackled at a much higher level within central Government so that the public feel able to intervene confident that they will not be put through what you experienced and so that the rank and file police officer does not have to escort you through what is definitely an embarrassing situation for both them and you. Although this was 20 years ago the same perception exists now as much as it did then. You may be interested in this article published in the Mail Online on 30th September last. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/... On another note but related to this topic, I am pleased to report that we had a positive outcome to an incident that happened last Friday night. A number of youths had decided to jump the fence to the Sainsbury delivery area sometime around 12:00am to 01:00am and ransacked the area. In the process they filled a couple of trolleys with things like Christmas card boxes, tins of sweets, and wrapping paper rolls etc. (Maybe they were thinking of their dear old mums Christmas and were doing a spot of late night shopping!). They had also done the same thing the previous night but without so much mess (we missed that one). Now it just so happened that we had friends visiting that night so we were up late. Our friends had not long left when we spotted some of the said youths unloading a trolley into the boot of a car, all within a few yards of our house. They spotted us watching them as they were transferring the booty and decided that perhaps it was safer to dump the rest and vacate the area. I had armed myself with a camera while they were busy and as they drove off I took a quick snap of them leaving. We had phoned the police during our observations and whilst they were interviewing the the remaining gathering of youths at Sainsbury’s I was able to enlarge the photo of the car and as luck would have it, I had caught the details of the number plate of the car and was able to identify all but one letter on the plate. After giving statements to the police on Saturday morning and they having been able to identify the car, the end result was that seven people were detained in custody overnight and most of Saturday, (don’t suppose they were best pleased with that alone) four of which were given a caution (I guess maybe because they had not offended before) and one was charged with handling stolen goods. This wasn’t as a result of Streetwatch, but we did nevertheless, take some action and were able to assist in getting a result. Merry Christmas Barry

Re: Street Watch - Sue W (23rd Dec 2008  09:17:00) Barry, Well done to you!! This is exactly the kind of community action people should be taking, and indeed do. Perhaps we (I am one of them), do not grab our phone cameras as often as we should. I think i have only ever taken and managed to store about 3 pictures on mine - just not quick enough to do better!. I can see one good up shot to this Street watch, any call now logged to the police will be dealt with, or actioned quicker, because to have 'no shows' and silence will not add to the statistics that community activity works. So if only for that reason - thanks!

Re: Street Watch - Phil McNamara (23rd Dec 2008  14:11:26) I suspect Barry's incident and positive contribution actually lends more weight to the argument for police-operated CCTV throughout Liphook as a better deterent than Street Watch. (Perhaps a hybrid solution is required - Street Watch wearing webcams instead of 0.45 calibre clip-boards!!) Kind regards, PMN

Re: Street Watch - katy (24th Dec 2008  14:58:54) Well done Barry I hope Sainsburys have suitably thanked you with a bottle of seasonal cheer! Merry Christmas Katy

Re: Street Watch - Name and address supplied (6th Jan 2009  02:10:39) On Saturday, a Mum took her youngest to the Arsenal / Plymouth game at The Emirates Stadium. 9k Plymouth fans attended, sang the 50k Arsenal fans to a silence, lost, but the said young mum never heard a word of abuse or nastiness in the stadium or on the journey through London back to the train home. What credit is deserved by both sets of supporters, eh?. Arriving back at Liphook station circa 8.15pm all passengers disembarking were treated to verbal abuse,vile beyond comprehension, by young teenagers slugging out of bottles, doubtlessly supplied by guess who. Truly astonishingly abusive to all who came off the train. I guess that the responsibility for policing that particular area falls on the Transport police, but we all know that for years the local a/holes have taken control of the station at will knowing they can do so with a degree of impunity later on at night. Any comment on this from the good Inspector?

Re: Street Watch - Phil McNamara (7th Jan 2009  21:15:56) Disturbing to read that any passenger / resident - let alone a mother travelling with children - had to endure the verbal abuse you describe. However, please consider this. On the one hand, we are able to say we all know that the station and some other notable areas around are the places were various anti-social types hang out. On the other hand, we have the local constabulary encouraging us to reclaim our community and leading us with various schemes etc. We also know that Liphook isn't exactly Croxteth. Personally, I'd rather see the police go down to these known areas of trouble, pick up the anti-social types by the scruff of the neck and cart them off with flashing blue lights. The police are often to be heard saying they know who they are, anyway. So why not get down there, bring a van, and cart them off and make the place a bit safer for the rest of us law-abiding people. Ah - too easy! Forgot that even criminals have RIGHTS!!

Re: Street Watch - Barry Hope (8th Jan 2009  09:37:22) Hi Not good to hear about the experience of the young mum or the other train passengers. Just a thought, did the mum or anyone else (once in the safety of their car of course) make a phone call to the police reporting what happened and give descriptions of the offenders? It may have been that they could have attended if they knew it was happening there and then, or at the very least logged it in case it tied in with any other events in the village at that time. I know it can work (see my previous post about Sainsbury's invasion), although I know it's not fool proof and sometimes doesn't happen quickly enough but that should not deter us from phoning and making a complaint or passing the information on as every time we are successful in getting a result, the more it passes a message on that we are not prepared to tolerate it. This, combined with initiatives like Streetwatch, can only help to improve things in the area. Talking of which, I went out on a Streetwatch patrol with Chief Inspector Phil Kedge the other night and we met a group of youngsters who were standing around chatting, albeit very cold. They were very chatty and pleasant, and talked sensibly for 20 minutes about their lives, aspirations and what they get up to. They said they could understand people feeling intimidated when there were a group of them together talking but said they meant no harm to people and were not violent, just a little loud at times maybe. There was no abuse, swearing or intimidation and at the end of the conversation they offered to shake hands and wished us well. (They had no idea who I or Chief Inspector Kedge were). I know this is not typical of all groups and some can be very antisocial as the previous example demonstrates, but the more we get out there and engage with them the more we might just get through to them and hopefully reach a mutual understanding and respect. Best wishes Barry

Re: Street Watch - Chris (8th Jan 2009  13:30:03) As has been pointed out before the real offenders rarely actually live in Liphook. The ones you met Barry probably do. Short of stapling the home town of the individuals to them there isn't an easy way to tell but it is well known that troublemakers have to avoid the curfew areas and do so by travelling further afield. There is one answer and that is surveillance and hard (community service style) punishment for offenders. I don't know why there is such antipathy towards actually punishing these people rather than imposing curfews. You rarely get such desperate levels of anti-social behaviour in other European countries because it is just not accepted anywhere else. Call me "Angry of Mayfair" if you like but I doubt that there would be much repeat offending if 2 year's hard community service was given first time, every time! Zero tolerence!

Re: Street Watch - christi (11th Jan 2009  07:35:54) Can anyone let me know if there are any set days or routes that the streetwatch team patrol? I have noticed that although there seems to be an increase in theft and anti-social behaviour being reported in certain areas of the village there seems to be an even more non existent police presence?! So does this now mean that Streetwatch are patroling the main "problem areas" and the police are staying around the Bordon area? Might just be me but I know of 2 thefts from work vehicles this week and still not a police car/person in sight!

Re: Street Watch - Barry Hope (11th Jan 2009  19:31:35) Hi Christi There are no set routes and no set times. Arrangements are made as and when people are available and they decide where to go and how long for. As far as I am aware this has no effect on other policing and is not taking the place of routine police presence. It is instead, an additionional activity to the police patrols or responses. If you have concerns then you need to report them in the usual way to ensure the police are aware of them and can act accordingly. Regards BArry

Re: Street Watch - christi (12th Jan 2009  08:10:34) Unfortunately the police are aware of these incidents and have basically told the victims that there is little chance of catching them! They therefore have very little chance of getting their tools/equipment back. Dont please assume that I am saying Streetwatch should be doing more, far from it. I am one of the people that feel the police need a bigger presence around the village, they have been aware for a while now that a gang or gangs of theives are targeting this area, with a particular interest in work vehicles. All I can say to anyone who is self-employed and have to leave tools in their vans overnight try and take photos and serial numbers of what you can. Your insurance is more likely to be paid if you take these steps.

Re: Street Watch - Allan (13th Jan 2009  02:51:15) This thread has been extremely illuminating. It is unfortunate that consiencious volunteers,giving of their own time, are inevitably going to be criticised for "missing" this or that incident after they have moved on or, as they are entitled to, gone home to the warmth of their families. I'll give you an instance; New years eve (well, slightly after, 'bout 2 am ) a well known local couple wandered back from The Links by foot. A group of youngsters, 8-10 in no, had gathered in the square and were being a bit noisy (not unusual for NYE surely), the couple ignored and walked on past Finlay's, all of a sudden the male half of this couple was whacked on the head by one of the teens, cap removed as a trophy, and subjected to mocking abuse relating to their age (Just work it out ) Now, it would be entirely unfair to suggest that Streetwatch were not there or should have been when needed to provide a deterrent, but a police presence would have made all the difference. They are right there with speed cameras, quite able to escort Steve Read round to the domociles of baby crims to apologise for getting involved. Where T.F. are they when good, honest, law abiding folks are being intimidated like this. I'm sick of this. Had the chap turned round and lammied the little shit, guess where he would have spent the rest of New Years Day? Steve's post gives you a clue. Some time back when Tony Bliar was P.M. a furore was raging in the national press about people defending their own homes against burglars and the Govt. stated that there were sufficient laws in the statute book to allow anyone to protect themselsves or their families with force that they deemed "appropriate" in the circumstances. Try it. Because of the terms of the last Criminal Justices Bill intoduced mid 90's(?), the perpetrator of crime against the person has far more protection in law than a victim "protecting" themselves, in-so-much-as that those that you may be physically protecting yourself from by use of violence, however limited or controlled, can, if they wish to complain that they have been assaulted by YOU. The trick for them is that if a policeman is told by any member of the public that a crime has been commited, they have to log it, no matter how daft. Drug dealers freely peddle their wares outside Bohunt School at going home time. Police reaction; leave them there 'cos if they are there we know where they are and we don't have to worry about anywhere else. There is a logic in this, but hell, if it was your child being targetted and supplied.....? I felt really sorry for the chap as described above. He is a hard working, successful bussinessman who provides employment for around 60 people directly and however many benefit working for supplying and client companies as a result of his hard work and success. Because he thought that discretion would be the better part of valour on the night, he did not feel that he could defend himself and his good lady from the number of youths present (can you blame him), but I imagine he feels somewhat emasculated, all the same, by having to walk away. Streetwatch as an entity cannot be even slightly associated with the above, but other agencies can and should have

Re: Street Watch - Stephen (13th Jan 2009  09:17:37) So where's the CCTV? I thought ours was the surveillance nation.

Re: Street Watch - Roy (1st Feb 2009  00:33:07) I have read this thread with extreme interest. Such discussions are what freedom of expression is all about. Yes Street Watch might not be perfect, and yes there are risks involved . But if one has the interests of the community at heart then one cannot sit back and do nothing. Barry, and the action he took regarding the theft of goods from the Sainsbury depot, is a perfect example of what can be done. That is what it is all about. One can go round and round in never ending circles talking about what the police should or should not do. Non of this achieves anything. Here is a scheme that can have a marked effect on crime. Give it a chance, it has only just started after all.

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